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Dexed in latch mode  

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Seagreg
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April 14, 2020 8:09 pm  

The Dexed in All In this Together is in latch mode. But I cant find where to change it.


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getdunne
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April 14, 2020 8:44 pm  

There are two Dexed layers in KEY - All in this Together. Neither is set to latch. The Guru Sampler on INST3 does ring out a very long time, because its Release time is set to >14 seconds.

If you have accidentally set any layer to latch, the top-left box in that layer's MIDI-controls cluster will show "LM" or "LP" instead of "IN". Click and select "Raw MIDI In" to reset it.


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Seagreg
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April 14, 2020 9:01 pm  

@getdunne

no sorry - the Dexed  in inst 2 plays every key that is pressed eternally. It stops if you change the preset. You can see it on the keyboard


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getdunne
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April 14, 2020 10:05 pm  

@seagreg When I first checked, I saw the same thing, but it turned out to be because my MIDI controller needed a reset. It was stuck in a state where it thought the MIDI sustain pedal was down. After I powered it off and on again, the problem went away.


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Seagreg
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April 15, 2020 12:20 am  

@getdunne

When I think back I had this problem several times with unify, but only with some patches. After I made my first post I turned my whole rig down. After your answer I restarted the whole rig and had the same effect. Didn’t discover that working with Cubase, Omnisphere, Keyscape, Ample or NI. Maybe you should take a closer look. 


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getdunne
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April 15, 2020 12:54 am  

@seagreg

I'll be happy to take a closer look, but I can't fix any problem until I can reproduce it.

  • Are you on Mac or Windows?
  • Does the problem occur in Unify stand-alone, or inside a DAW, or both?
  • Does it happen every single time you load KEY - All in this Together, or only sometimes?
  • Does it happen if you disconnect (or power off) all hardware MIDI controllers and just hit a note in the Unify keyboard (ShowMIDI) view?

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Seagreg
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April 15, 2020 8:14 am  

I’m a PC user

The problem accures in the standalone version and in Cubase 10 Pro.
In the standalone version the keyboard in Dexed shows the key on no key off and the sound rings on. Show midi displays it correctly
In the Cubase version the keyboard in Dexed in unify shows key on and key off correctly but the sounds ring on. Show midi displays it correctly.

It behaves constantly. 

Im using the Yamaha Montage as MIDI controller and audio interface. 

If I play on the Show midi keyboard with the mouse the patch behaves like it should do.( Montage connected )

Dexed as A VST plugin in Cubase works correctly.

greetings from Bavaria

Seagreg

 

 


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getdunne
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April 15, 2020 7:32 pm  

@seagreg

This is very strange. I have tried, but I can't reproduce this on my PC. I have even downloaded the shipping version of Unify v1.0.12 and reinstalled that, AND re-loaded the Unify Content 1.0.12 Update.guru file (which contains the All in this Together patch).

I even switched to a Yamaha keyboard (DX7IIFD), because I know it outputs MIDI note-off events as note-on events with velocity 0, just to see if that might be the cause of the problem, but I can't reproduce the issue you report (Dexed's on-screen keyboard shows note-on but no note-off, and notes keep sounding) either in Unify v1.0.12 stand-alone or the Unify v1.0.12 VST in Cubase 10.5.

  • Are you using Unify v1.0.12?
  • In Cubase, do you use the VST or the VST3 version of Unify v1.0.12?
  • If you have an external sustain pedal plugged into your Montage, please ensure the plug is pushed in all the way.

 


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PlugInGuruForums
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April 15, 2020 8:07 pm  

Hello @seagreg - how strange, so the VST version of Unify loads and plays the patch correctly but standalone and VST3 do not? Trying to understand if this is consistent with all versions of the plug-in or just with anything that isn't the VST version.

Life is Sound / Sound is Divine
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Tyler
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April 15, 2020 8:31 pm  

In case it helps, I have reproduced this in Cubase 10 on Windows. Will update if I notice anything strange with the setup, but this was right out of the box. Doesn't seem to involve the latch mode and in my case INST 2 & INST 3 play indefinitely - see screenshot.


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Tyler
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April 15, 2020 9:05 pm  

For whatever reason it seems like it's related to the sustain CC being on by default for the All In this Together patch. I don't have a separate sustain pedal, but when I manually change the sustain CC it turns off the sound. Not sure what's making this patch susceptible since it doesn't happen for other Dexed patches. And it happens 100% of the time with this patch.

<EDIT>

For grins I hooked up my sustain pedal (CC64) but it didn't fix the issue. When the patch is loaded, the notes go on forever even tho the pedal is "off". When I click the pedal twice (on then off), the notes end.


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PlugInGuruForums
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April 15, 2020 9:28 pm  

Here is a resaved version of the patch - please confirm if this loads and plays correctly? All I did was resave it making sure I did not have the sustain pedal pressed while saving. I don't think I saved it that way originally - but worth a shot. Tyler, thank you for confirming that this happens for you since neither Shane or myself can recreate this on our various computer systems!

From DropBox, please place in the Libraries/User Library/Patches folder:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/r2v4syvwyif5v1i/KEY%20-%20All%20In%20this%20Together%20V1_1.unify.zip?dl=0

Life is Sound / Sound is Divine
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Tyler
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April 15, 2020 9:41 pm  

@pluginguruforums

It loads fine but has the exact same weird behavior as the original factory patch. The only new thing I noticed is that when I restarted Cubase, the patch worked correctly. But if I switch to a different patch, then back to All In this Together it reverts to the indefinite sustain thing again.


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Tyler
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April 16, 2020 12:02 am  

@pluginguruforums @getdunne

Think I see what's "wrong" with this patch. There is a macro knob assigned to CC64 and it's turned all the way up by default. Maybe this was by design but it's somewhat confusing. Also wonder why you guys don't see the same behavior? 


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PlugInGuruForums
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April 16, 2020 12:40 am  

@tyler - MacroKnobs are assigned to MIDI CC#s by users... or they are supposed to be. I think we only assign the first 4 to 1,2,4 and 67 by default. By changing that specific knob to anything other than 64 will stop that from happening I hope!

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PlugInGuruForums
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April 16, 2020 12:42 am  

Yes, the knob assigned to MIDI CC#64 would be the issue, for sure. No wonder Shane and I can't replicate this because the knobs on our systems are assigned other numbers, definitely not #64.

Life is Sound / Sound is Divine
www.pluginguru.com


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getdunne
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April 16, 2020 1:16 am  

Each saved patch includes details about which parameters have been linked to each macro knob, and what names they have been assigned, but NOT which MIDI CC's control them. This is deliberate, because each user's MIDI controller setup will be different, and so the CC assignments are up to the individual user.

By default, the first four macro knobs are assigned to CC's 1, 2, 4, and 67, to match the convention used in the original AIRWAVE libraries for Omnisphere. However, when you change the assignment, the changes you make will become the new defaults, and are restored the next time you open Unify. (If you want multiple sets of CC assignments, you can save and restore CC-Assignment Presets, as described in the Unify manual: https://pluginguru.net/unify/manual/doku.php?id=realtime-params#macro-definitions_and_cc-assignments_presets .)


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Tyler
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April 16, 2020 3:51 am  

Correct. Without that CC assigned it works as expected. Will be interesting to hear if @seagreg has done something similar with the macro knobs.

I guess the only thing that might be helpful here is a "reset to defaults" option. Or provide 2 xml files in the Midi Controller Presets folder for each of the default Macro & CC preset mappings? That would at least clue someone in that they had changed them (which I'm sure I did messing around thinking my changes were temporary).


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Seagreg
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April 16, 2020 1:52 pm  

@tyler

at the moment im at work. In about 4 hours im able to check it. Thanks for your investigation


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Seagreg
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April 16, 2020 9:12 pm  

It sounds good. Unfortunately I’m not able to find the Macroknob with cc64. And the second question is why does it only affect Dexed and not Gurusampler. I thought the Macroknobs are global. Maybe Macroknobs could be a good topic for a Tuesday Tip

This post was modified 8 months ago 2 times by Seagreg

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Tyler
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April 16, 2020 9:47 pm  

The macro knobs are not global per se. Rather they are "linked" to one (or more) parameters for the layers. You can see each set of links by right clicking the macro knob and selecting "Linked Parameters...". I attached what I have in that patch for macro 2. Where it gets tricky is that if there's also a CC assigned, then the CC might also control other things. These could be common ones like CC1 (modulation), CC64 (sustain) or something the user assigned using the learn function within an instrument.

An additional complexity might come into play if you have hardware knobs/faders assigned to various CC numbers. And different hardware can trigger the CC messages in slightly different ways. That's why it ends up being quite tricky to know exactly what can cause a given behavior. And it doesn't help that most instruments are missing a complete list of all their assigned CCs. Instead you end up clicking around the instrument UI to try to find the default CC mappings.

Unify has a built in MIDI Monitor that you can add as a new layer in order to watch for CC messages. This could help if you want to look for the CC64 (sustain) message. If that is being triggered somehow, then you'd need to track down what is causing it (knob/fader/pedal/etc).


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getdunne
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April 17, 2020 2:33 am  

@seagreg

Could you please also post a screen shot of your ShowMIDI view? (Click on the 5-pin MIDI icon at the bottom left of the Unify GUI. The ShowMIDI view is the one which shows the keyboard; see https://pluginguru.net/unify/manual/doku.php?id=showmidi .)


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Seagreg
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April 17, 2020 3:47 am  

The Unify Macroknobs are global because there is only one set of knobs in Unify. That you are able to assign the knobs to different destinations is just another aspect.

If cc is assigned to the knob you can see it displayed in the knob

I checked the cc setup of my Yamaha MONTAGE. Only the sustain pedal produces cc64. By the way using the Unify Midi Monitor crashed Unify several times

The MONTAGE has a set of 8 assignable knobs set to cc17 to cc24. The Macroknobs in Unify are set to 1st cc17 2nd empty 3rd cc19  ... 8th cc24. I’m not sure why - maybe messing around.

@getdunne what is the out of the box cc setting of the Macroknobs 
@getdunne the ShowMIDI Setting is 1,2,4,67

what confused my totally was during the test Unify came up with cc64 on Macroknob 1 . 

I’ve got to instances of unify in Cubase

Perhaps you know the song from Meat loaf “patch out of hell”

 

 

 


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Seagreg
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April 17, 2020 12:39 pm  

From the Manual 

 

do they fit together?

 

 
 
This post was modified 8 months ago 2 times by Seagreg

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getdunne
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April 17, 2020 4:58 pm  

@seagreg

I'm not exactly sure what you're asking when you say "do they fit together", but I'll try to explain.

Unify has exactly eight "macro" parameters, whose values can be adjusted in 3 ways:

  1. Manually, using the macro knobs on the Unify GUI
  2. Via MIDI, using CC messages. (You get to choose which CC controls which macro.)
  3. Using host automation: the Unify plug-in exposes macro parameters "Macro1" through "Macro8" to the host/DAW.

These "macro parameters" are completely unrelated to the vertical indicators in the ShowMIDI view, which simply show input MIDI CC activity.

Does this help?


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getdunne
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April 17, 2020 5:01 pm  

@seagreg

You might have set one of Unify's macro knobs to CC#64 accidentally, e.g.:

  • Right-click a knob and choose "MIDI Learn"
  • Press or release your sustain pedal, before adjusting whatever CC knob you intended to assign.

Once you change CC assignments, Unify will remember them for all future sessions, until you change them again.


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getdunne
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April 18, 2020 3:20 pm  

I don't have time to make a diagram at the moment, but I will do my best to explain.

Your points 1, 3, and 4 are correct, but 2 is not: When a macro knob is turned, the values of all of its linked parameters will be updated, according to the new position of the knob. The parameter values are set directly, not via MIDI. However, the knob will also send out a MIDI CC message, if it has an assigned CC number, and I believe this was the cause of your problem.

Here is a more detailed explanation of how incoming MIDI messages are handled in Unify:

  1. Incoming MIDI messages (CC included) are always distributed to all MIDI and INST layers, and the macro knobs.
    • INST layers can optionally be set to ignore the input MIDI stream, and listen to the output of a selected MIDI layer instead
  2. If an incoming MIDI CC message matches the CC-number assigned to a macro knob, that macro knob will move to match the value of the CC message.
    • MIDI CC messages carry a value in the range 0-127
    • This is interpreted as 0 to 100% of knob rotation
  3. If a knob has an assigned CC-number, turning the knob will also inject new CC messages into the MIDI stream to the layers.
    • This is supposed to happen only
      • when the knob is turned manually, using the mouse
      • OR when it moves in response to host automation
      • OR when the knob-position is set from the value saved in a patch (this is important--see below)
    • However, it also happens when the knob turns in response to incoming MIDI CC messages.
      • As a result, if a knob is set to, say, CC#16, and a CC#16 message comes in, Unify's layers will see two copies of the CC#16 message. The first one is the original, incoming message; the second is a duplicate produced by the knob.
      • This is a mistake, which I hope to fix in a future update. Most of the time it's harmless, but it can be confusing.

You should also understand that the position of each macro knob is saved with each patch. For example, the patch KEY - All In this Together is saved with the first five knobs positioned as shown in the attachment. Knobs 2, 4, and 5 are each set past the 50% mark. If you assign CC#64 (MIDI sustain) to any of these three knobs, here is what happens when you load that patch:

  • The previous patch is cleared (same as if you clicked INIT)
  • The patch's layers are loaded, layer-to-layer connections are made, etc.
  • Each of the macro knobs is set to the position it was at, when the patch was saved
  • Because the knobs move, any knobs which are have an assigned CC also generate a CC message, which goes to all layers.
  • In this case, one of the knobs was set to MIDI CC#64, so a MIDI CC#64 message is sent, with value >64. Instrument plug-ins will interpret this as "Sustain pedal DOWN".
  • Hence, all instruments will come up in a sustaining state, until you press and release the physical sustain pedal.

I don't know if this is what happened to you, but I suspect so. As I explained in an earlier answer, this could have happened accidentally. However, you say that this is not the case, so it may take longer to diagnose this problem. Hopefully the above explanation will help a bit.

Could you please save a copy of the KEY - All In this Together patch (e.g. to your User Library folder), and post the .unify file here so I can analyze it?


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Seagreg
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April 19, 2020 4:25 pm  

Final post

It is definitely the fault of my Yamaha MONTAGE.

I switched the MIDI control to my Yamaha Genos and it was gone.

Before I tested the BPM patches with the MONTAGE . And non of them was ringing forever.  

But I found another little issue.

To select them I added BPM in the search field and progressed with the down arrow on the computer.

I was not able to reach the end of the list because the cursor jumped to the beginning of the list after maybe 25 steps down.

I didn’t count it yet but was able to reproduce it. 

 


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getdunne
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April 19, 2020 6:49 pm  

@seagreg

Do you use a third-party (non-Yamaha brand) sustain pedal with your Montage? This can cause such problems.

When using the "next patch" (down arrow) button, the patch-selection should wrap automatically from the last patch in the list to the first one. I tried but was unable to reproduce what you report, which is that it wraps before first hitting the end of the list. Please provide precise details.


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Seagreg
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April 19, 2020 7:15 pm  

@getdunne

on my MONTAGE I use a original Yamaha FC3A, on my Genos a JustIn Sustain pedal. I also own an older Yamaha original sustain pedal. I will check it tomorrow.

it warps wenn it leaves BPM SPLIT - Minor Chords DeepDre....


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getdunne
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April 19, 2020 7:27 pm  

I tried to reproduce the "warp" behavior here, but could not. One thing I notice is that the next patch after BPM Split - Minor Chords DeepDream is one of yours, so I tried creating one of my own with the same name, but still could not reproduce the issue.

Please keep watching for this behavior, and let's try to find how to make it happen. As soon as I can reproduce it, I can fix it.


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Seagreg
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April 20, 2020 7:16 pm  

@getdunne

I had two BPM Radio ga ga patches. One of them should have been deleted. But it was somehow left in the database. It was displayed if I was searching for Radio ga ga but I could not access it. After a reorganisation of the database it was gone. And the warps also. 

Another test with my Yamaha MODX7 didn’t show any Keys- all ..... issues 


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getdunne
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April 20, 2020 7:21 pm  

If the patch database does not match the files on the disk, then the behavior you saw is not surprising at all.

The patch database is just an index to the files on the disk. If you delete a patch file outside Unify, you must rebuild the database to refresh the index.

When you delete a patch inside Unify (select the patch, hit SAVE, then click the DELETE button in the Save dialog), it should update the database correctly, but there are rare situations where this might not happen.

I'm glad you were able to sort this out.


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