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Hanging Notes when Using Unify

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(@rreuscher)
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Hi I'm a new Unify User.

A bought Unify as an Addition to Gig Performer to make use of the "Multi-Thread" capabilties, that Gig Performer doe not have. In this way the CPU load will be spread over multiple cores, and gives me much more actual processing power.

While I'm testing I suddenly had hanging notes. I placed a VSTi plugin in Unify, which I would normally place directly in Gig Performer.

When I send 2 same NoteOn messages and after that 2 NoteOff messages on the same Note (eg. Playing the same Vsti and same note from 2 keyboards), then after releasing the note, the note keeps hanging.

When I have my VSTi directly (instead of using Unify as a "shell") in Gig Performer that does not happen.

It also does not happen on every VSTi. I ran into the issue with several "ROLAND Cloud" plugins (SRX Orchestra, JV-1080), and KORG Triton (These are the ones I currently tested)

Is there some processing in regard to the incoming Midi messages in Unify going on (eg. filter out  consecutively NoteOff messages) ?

I have put a midi monitor before going into Unify, and also put a midi monitor in my Unify Layer. There I can clearly see that 1 NoteOff message gets lost. (I'm sending 3 noteoff messages in, but the Unify Midi Monitor only shows 2).

See also attached screenshot.

Best regards, Rene Reuscher


   
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(@getdunne)
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@rreuscher

Thank you for the detailed report. I will try to reproduce this and track down why it's happening.

I have not done much testing with overlapped identical notes (multiple note-ons for same note number, without intervening note-off). How were these MIDI events generated? Did you use multiple keyboards?

Synths in general will very in how they respond to repeated note-ons, so this type of MIDI sequence will always be problematic. However, I agree that Unify should not be dropping note-off events.


   
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(@rreuscher)
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@getdunne 

Hi, in this case indeed I played the same note on 2 different keyboards. They both send on different channels, but I'll convert them to channel 1 (As thy both need to play the same Plugin). Plugins handle those messages indeed in a different way. The majority, when received 1 noteoff message will kill all notes, but some need just as much noteoff's as noteon's received ( which in my opinion is the correct way to handle it, but in this case creates an issue).


   
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(@getdunne)
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@rreuscher

Thank you for clarifying. I'll look into this, and see if I can find why those extra note-offs are disappearing in Unify.


   
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(@jblack5895)
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@getdunne  Hi, I also have experience stuck notes and hanging notes, when using certain VST plug Ins.

When using Korg VSTs particularly Triton Extreme, midi notes regularly get stuck when playing in Unify, which makes it impossible to use these VSTs for Live work, as I have all my tracks created with different instances of Unify inside Cubase.

Also when using UVI vsts in Unify, I get hanging notes, this is one particular note when other notes are played at the same time.

(Again this is using Unify with Cubase)

When using the vsts directly in Cubase these problems do not occur.

Both these problems are cleared with the MIDI panic button, and if this was able to be activated by CC from the keyboard that would help.

 

Cheers,

 

John Blacklock


   
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(@getdunne)
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Posted by: @jblack5895

@getdunne  Hi, I also have experience stuck notes and hanging notes, when using certain VST plug Ins.

When using the vsts directly in Cubase these problems do not occur.

I've observed this too, also with Korg's plug-ins and most definitely Triton Extreme. It may be a Korg issue; I will mention it to my developer contact at Korg R&D. Why this happens in Unify, and not in Cubase, is a question I'd very much like to answer. I'm really sorry that you are struggling with this, and that it's affecting using Unify for live performance.

In my own experiments, I found that I got stuck notes far more often when using my Casio Privia PX-160 piano as a MIDI controller, so I used Unify's built-in MIDI Monitor plug-in and discovered that it sends a rather complicated set of messages when you release the sustain pedal, and these can confuse Unify's MIDI processing. What controller are you using?

Both these problems are cleared with the MIDI panic button, and if this was able to be activated by CC from the keyboard that would help.

This can only be done using a MIDI Controller File at the moment. (See https://pluginguru.net/unify/manual/doku.php?id=midi-controller-files, and scroll down to the second example.)


   
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(@rreuscher)
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@getdunne: I'm using a Roland Fantom G-8 and a Nord Stage 2 as my controller Boards.

Posted by: @getdunne

I've observed this too, also with Korg's plug-ins and most definitely Triton Extreme. It may be a Korg issue; I will mention it to my developer contact at Korg R&D. Why this happens in Unify, and not in Cubase, is a question I'd very much like to answer. I'm really sorry that you are struggling with this, and that it's affecting using Unify for live performance.

I don't think its a Korg issue. It just that Korg handles the midi messages in the correct way, meaning:

- When the Plugin receives 2 or more NoteOn's on the same note, It also expects the same amount of NoteOff's on that note. The majority of plugin's, when they receive 1 NoteOff message, the "kill" all the notes of that currently played note, independent of how many NotenOn's were received (Which strictly speaking is not correct).

Its the same as if I would lend someone 2x 100$, and would be fine when he gives me back 1 x 100$..... No, I want back 2x 100$ 🙂

The problem here is within Unify, I suspect that Unify does some filtering on incoming Midi data, like it filters out 2 consecutively send messages, and reduces it to just 1 (just taking out double send (but correctly send) messages). For this reason you will see that it will work correctly in Cubase, or like in my case correctly in GigPerformer, when I just put the Plugin ( eg. Korg Triton ) in GigPerformer, but does not work anymore when I replace the Korg Triton plugin with Unify, and place the Korg Triton in Unify.

I think the Screenshot I posted shows also the proof, The left Midi Monitor is what gets send into Unify, the Right Midi Monitor shows whats send within Unify to VsTi, and there you see that 1 NoteOff message got lost.


   
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(@getdunne)
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@rreuscher

I thought of our earlier discussion of this issue immediately when I read @jblack5895's post, but his stuck-notes may not be happening for the same reason as yours.


   
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(@rreuscher)
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@getdunne

hmmm I think it might be the same reason, as I know for 99% sure that the Korg Triton Extreme plugin, just like the Korg Triton plugin expects just as much NoteOff's as NoteON's.

But I can be wrong 🙂


   
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(@jblack5895)
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@rreuscher 

I've been using a Casio PX-5S for live work as it is so light and a good keyboard.

But I've just swapped it out for my Dexibell S9, and the problem seems to have gone away!!

Certainly for the Korg VSTs, and it also seems to have solved the problem with the UVI VSTs.

 

Anyway I'll keep trying and will let you know if I discover the problem again.

 

Thanks for your halp.

 

Cheers,

 

John


   
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(@getdunne)
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@jblack5895

As soon as I read you were using a Casio PX, I figured that might be the issue. I'm glad to know that your newer keyboard is working better.


   
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(@getdunne)
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@rreuscher

I completely agree that if Unify is losing note-off events somehow, that will cause stuck notes, and I intend to dig in and get to the bottom of that as soon as I can.


   
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